F1wanabe Show full post »
dtribby
Redirection. A useful tool. You're simply defining terms, not making an argument. Just like name-calling. And BTW, definition #5 aligns squarely with my last post. Definition #1, however, can't work because judgement isn't part of the national curriculum, and is frowned upon in PC circles. "Judging" is bad (never mind that the same people who say this have no problem calling those who disagree names, which is a form of judgement). You also haven't addressed spending vs. results, and basically GIVEN me my point about an obvious political/worldview agenda:

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Now on to your fears about our nation's children being taught an opposing political view to your own. That sucks, sorry, deal with it... ...But that sounds like a personal problem not one of our nation's...


It IS a personal problem, but it is also a national one. You assume that simply because a view is different from mine, that is not "truth", but at the same time the progressive view of "truth" is completely subjective. So, by implication, you're fine with your little girl learning that there is no such thing as an absolute truth, but merely her interpretation of the information and whatever works best for her? You're a new parent, so I'll give you a few years, but I can almost guarantee that your views will lean more conservative every year she gets older. Because, without a belief in objective truths or moral authority, you have no parental authority (save that which you may believe the UN has entrusted you with one of ITS citizens), and no reason to EVER correct her behavior.

You will also begin to discover, first-hand, the change that has occurred in schools since you and I went; the effects of federal involvement in public education, and how that drives SO much of the curriculum and teaching methods that are employed. On a recent math pre-test for the state exam (required for receipt of federal monies), my fourth-grader was required to solve a problem, but it wasn't her answer, so much as the ONE specified method for solving the problem that was graded. A correct answer, solved any other way, would not get full credit. According to her 30-year veteran teacher, there are multiple other, and more effective, ways to teach the class to solve the type of problem, but because of the state test, she will now spend three times longer getting the class proficient, which cuts into other goals. I could go on, and maybe I will later, but for now, enjoy the time while you and mommy are the only major influences in your precious little girl's life.
Yes, I've known that I'm "different" for some time now...
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dtribby
Religion - Argonauth and I have gone rounds over the years. There's not much we didn't cover, and it's in the archive.
Yes, I've known that I'm "different" for some time now...
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squishy
...I have to laugh a little because I heard conservative commentators saying that Obama's recent speech was a JFK'ish speech.

Here's a cool quote, who said this?

"For as much as government can do and must do, it is ultimately the faith and determination of the American people upon which this nation relies. It is the kindness to take in a stranger when the levees break, the selflessness of workers who would rather cut their hours than see a friend lose their job which sees us through our darkest hours. It is the firefighter's courage to storm a stairway filled with smoke, but also a parent's willingness to nurture a child, that finally decides our fate."
"Education is not about filling buckets; it is lighting fires." W.B. Yeats

http://www.youtube.com/user/squishy654
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useless-thumbs
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... One of the things he mentioned was the responsibility of the employee to the company. ...
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I think responsibility is a two way street.
Ms. Ehrenreich's experience is that the employers (both large and small) of unskilled* workers seem to want their employees to act in a responsible way to their work whilst the employer appears reluctant/averse to taking up the responsibilities for, say, health care of their employees. Not just that, the employers appear to require absolute submission from their workers.

* I would also argue strongly that what may appear unskilled labour to a middle class person is, in fact, not just bloody hard work but requires a skill-set that most "educated" people could not provide.
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dtribby
I have to laugh a little too, when I see what passes for a "conservative" commentator these days. Condi Rice on CBS? I'm not holding my breath for anything inspiring.

Oh, I don't really know to which commentators you were referring, just using your post as a spring board for a random thought. No critique intended.
Yes, I've known that I'm "different" for some time now...
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dtribby
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"For as much as government can do and must do, it is ultimately the faith and determination of the American people upon which this nation relies. It is the kindness to take in a stranger when the levees break, the selflessness of workers who would rather cut their hours than see a friend lose their job which sees us through our darkest hours. It is the firefighter's courage to storm a stairway filled with smoke, but also a parent's willingness to nurture a child, that finally decides our fate."


Trivia Monday! Ooh! Ooh! Pick me!!!

That was a small portion of our Dear Leader's inaugural address. The FIRST one in 2009.
Yes, I've known that I'm "different" for some time now...
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Jeriah
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. Getting a so called education does not make you smarter or help you get a job (at all!) unless you are getting a degree for a specific purpose).


sorry I should have rephrased that earlier. going to college (does) make you smarter and help you get a job (because of the degree you get), but whats the point if you don't even know what your going to do after college? (most people that go to college get an average job with an average pay) and I think we can agree that (most) of the reason that (most) kids go to college is for the social experience and girls. not to mention the influences aren't the best and a lot of kids come out of college with there life worse that it was before.
eZflight ~ Where flight is easy!
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Jeriah
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Wow... Hmmm... I think I'll start a post by insulting everyone who has commented by calling them ignorant. I'll try to be brief. By "education", I mean EXACTLY what Obama means - the state-sponsored and executed indoctrination of our children in the world view favored by our elitist progressive "educators" (your "experts" -a term designed to stifle arguments and imply a fact that may not, indeed exist) that confuses knowledge with wisdom and propagates the socialist-marxist view that government should be everyone's cradle-to-grave caretaker and the deciding body over most, if not all, of the way we live our daily lives. Oh, and making show of teaching kids about reading, writing, and arithmetic so that we get left alone. Please explain how we spend twice as much on education (in adjusted dollars, btw) as we did 30 years ago, with little, if any, tangible changes, other than a decidedly more left-leaning populace. Somehow, with 30 years of focus on "education", the problem STILL isn't fixed. Kind of like the 50 year "war on poverty" that has somehow justified massive increases in government spending, with absolutely ZERO decrease in poverty levels.

BTW, I hold a B.S. in Physics, a M.S. in Environmental Management, and inaddition to being an, entrepreneur with my own profitable small business, I am also a Field-Grade officer in the US Army with fields of expertise in Nuclear, Biological, Chemical, and Radiological Warfare, as well as Operations Research. I've "done" education plenty - at the civilian and military levels. "Ignorance" is hardly the issue - it's worldview and philosophy, and the current status quo does NOT work.


Sent from my R5-D4 astromech droid - for as long as its motivator keeps working.


very well said!
eZflight ~ Where flight is easy!
Youtube videos ~ https://www.youtube.com/ezflight
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squishy
I am trying to win the most condescending post of the day award...

Going to school does not make you "smarter" it makes you more knowledgeable (the opposite of ignorant), that's it. Intelligence (smart) is something you are born with not something that can be fostered or changed through education (I hear eating broccoli helps though). There's many factors that go into the success of college grads. Motivation and work ethic are at the top of my list, but intelligence is recognized in this world, just like a fine pair of boobs. And if you were a hiring manager and a really smart non-college grad out shined a college grad who would you hire? Even if you do not agree with it, that's the way it is, that's where the phrase "life isn't fair" comes from.

I personally do not put much stock in college, for many reasons. Progress requires innovation and intelligence, both cannot be taught. Did you guys know that google actually experimented with only hiring innovative people without college degrees? I knew a guy while working at Intel that went over to google, he said they hired him because he lacked a college degree in the subject. They found, through real world stats, people who were well educated were less innovative and less productive. Take the Microsoft interview questions for example, this is one "What method would you use to look up a word in a dictionary?" no joke, look it up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_interview

I am a fairly good example of my theories, my father is a better one. My only formal education is a high school diploma. My life's experiences, the school of hard knocks, is incredibly vast. I would still not recommend my path. Without a college degree, certification or any sort of piece of paper besides a resume I have landed jobs at some very prestigious institutions. While my friends were finishing up 10 year long PHD thesis's in advanced sciences, I was gaining highly valuable real world working experience. They actually came to me for advice when it came time for them to jump into the real world. I am now set for life and ready to take up reins in a leadership role while my friends are still peons in their field. Sure they might make more money than I someday, but they will have to settle because their fields are too saturated or under funded. They will not reach their lofty goals, no matter how much college they pay for. Such is life.

My father barely even graduated high school and worked in a bottling plant growing up. He eventually made it all the way to a designer/physicist at a secret national laboratory and still can't tell me what he was working on. The guy never went to college and ended his career teaching them. And he's not even that smart, just very creative and innovative.

So when someone tells you that going to college is required for a good job, just nod and smile. If you lack intelligence, innovation and a strong work ethic then you need to quickly find a lucrative field or trade and train like mad, be it college or vocational school but don't get down on yourself because there's people out there who have it easier than you. Some plumbers make a crap load of money. Some jobs simply require a skill, go find it and become a master at it. You can still make it in this world no matter what hand you are dealt, but sitting on your butt won't help and going to college, going through the motions, doing what others tell you, is not a guarantee that you will reach your goals or be successful.
"Education is not about filling buckets; it is lighting fires." W.B. Yeats

http://www.youtube.com/user/squishy654
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F1wanabe
Don't get me started on education, Dtribby. the worst thing that educators have done is introduce the concept of "problem solving". The buzz word a few years back was "teaching strategies" or "problem solving." My ex is a teacher, so I know it first hand. In fact, I used to have conversations with a "old timer" who saw the change coming and explained it to me. When I was growing up We were tested and expected to provide the right answer. Many times the teacher would care less how we arrived at it, but if we got it wrong, there was hell to pay! I noticed with my kids that the route to arriving at the answer was worth 50% and the answer was worth 50%. This was created to help TEACHER performance reviews, not to help kids learn. Teachers could take failing students and raise the grade simply by marking the wrong answer 50% correct! It is an NEA method to raising performance of students to justify the increasing spending on education while scores are dropping. Another sensitive area? Mainstreaming students with learning disabilities. This sounds like an insensitive thing for me to say and I catch hell for saying it. Until I explain. The children with disabilities used to be taken out of maintream classes and were taught with alternate methods.However, at my ex's school, the children who were taken out of class often performed better than "mainstream" students on testing. Now, the teachers who taught the children with learning disabilities did have smaller class sizes, but they also taught differently. They were teaching in class, rote learning and hands on - no packets! Now all the mainstream teachers do is give take home packets! So, this was creating problems in her school and not long after the children getting cutomized lesson plans were streamlined into regular classes under the guise of socialization. "It was unfair to keep them separated from their friends." But the real issue was their better-than-mainstream performance. So, now all the students are performing equally poorly, except the AP students who tend to get- you guessed it- a more customized lesson plan. The final kicker is, as we used to gather for events after school (dinners, parties, etc) these same teachers were complaining that, ever since the learning disabled kids were mainstreamed into their class, they cannot teach their normal lesson plans because the special attention they have to give to the learning disabled kids. That is why the scoring is dropping for all students. So, mainstreaming learning disabled kikds nurt the mainstream kids AND the learning disabled kids! How does this get back to the main topic? I think that there are many US students that should be taken out of mainstream classes and put into "students with learning inabilities "classes. Leave the mainstream classes to those kids with learning disabilities that CAN do the work!


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F1wanabe
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I am trying to win the most condescending post of the day award...

Going to school does not make you "smarter" it makes you more knowledgeable (the opposite of ignorant), that's it. Intelligence (smart) is something you are born with not something that can be fostered or changed through education (I hear eating broccoli helps though). There's many factors that go into the success of college grads. Motivation and work ethic are at the top of my list, but intelligence is recognized in this world, just like a fine pair of boobs. And if you were a hiring manager and a really smart non-college grad out shined a college grad who would you hire? Even if you do not agree with it, that's the way it is, that's where the phrase "life isn't fair" comes from.

I personally do not put much stock in college, for many reasons. Progress requires innovation and intelligence, both cannot be taught. Did you guys know that google actually experimented with only hiring innovative people without college degrees? I knew a guy while working at Intel that went over to google, he said they hired him because he lacked a college degree in the subject. They found, through real world stats, people who were well educated were less innovative and less productive. Take the Microsoft interview questions for example, this is one "What method would you use to look up a word in a dictionary?" no joke, look it up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_interview

I am a fairly good example of my theories, my father is a better one. My only formal education is a high school diploma. My life's experiences, the school of hard knocks, is incredibly vast. I would still not recommend my path. Without a college degree, certification or any sort of piece of paper besides a resume I have landed jobs at some very prestigious institutions. While my friends were finishing up 10 year long PHD thesis's in advanced sciences, I was gaining highly valuable real world working experience. They actually came to me for advice when it came time for them to jump into the real world. I am now set for life and ready to take up reins in a leadership role while my friends are still peons in their field. Sure they might make more money than I someday, but they will have to settle because their fields are too saturated or under funded. They will not reach their lofty goals, no matter how much college they pay for. Such is life.

My father barely even graduated high school and worked in a bottling plant growing up. He eventually made it all the way to a designer/physicist at a secret national laboratory and still can't tell me what he was working on. The guy never went to college and ended his career teaching them. And he's not even that smart, just very creative and innovative.

So when someone tells you that going to college is required for a good job, just nod and smile. If you lack intelligence, innovation and a strong work ethic then you need to quickly find a lucrative field or trade and train like mad, be it college or vocational school but don't get down on yourself because there's people out there who have it easier than you. Some plumbers make a crap load of money. Some jobs simply require a skill, go find it and become a master at it. You can still make it in this world no matter what hand you are dealt, but sitting on your butt won't help and going to college, going through the motions, doing what others tell you, is not a guarantee that you will reach your goals or be successful.

Squishy, there is nothing here that I find offensive to my conservative believes! What the heck? Life and work experience can be more educational than education. One daughter is a sophomore in college, one is a junior in high school. I told my 2 girls two things that are contradicting because at this time I can't see a benefit going one way or another: First, there are so many un employed kids and adults out there that have a college education. If you don't have a college diploma your resume is most likely going to be placed at the bottom of the pile. Regardless of your actual knowledge! Second, If you are unsure about continuing your education, don't go and rack up all that debt from attending a 4 year college. Go to a trade school for a couple years and work like heck to become the best in your field. So, I actually agree with your last post to a good extent. Where does that leave the 47 percenters though? Hahaha...


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Jeriah
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I am trying to win the most condescending post of the day award...

Going to school does not make you "smarter" it makes you more knowledgeable (the opposite of ignorant), that's it. Intelligence (smart) is something you are born with not something that can be fostered or changed through education (I hear eating broccoli helps though). There's many factors that go into the success of college grads. Motivation and work ethic are at the top of my list, but intelligence is recognized in this world, just like a fine pair of boobs. And if you were a hiring manager and a really smart non-college grad out shined a college grad who would you hire? Even if you do not agree with it, that's the way it is, that's where the phrase "life isn't fair" comes from.

I personally do not put much stock in college, for many reasons. Progress requires innovation and intelligence, both cannot be taught. Did you guys know that google actually experimented with only hiring innovative people without college degrees? I knew a guy while working at Intel that went over to google, he said they hired him because he lacked a college degree in the subject. They found, through real world stats, people who were well educated were less innovative and less productive. Take the Microsoft interview questions for example, this is one "What method would you use to look up a word in a dictionary?" no joke, look it up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_interview

I am a fairly good example of my theories, my father is a better one. My only formal education is a high school diploma. My life's experiences, the school of hard knocks, is incredibly vast. I would still not recommend my path. Without a college degree, certification or any sort of piece of paper besides a resume I have landed jobs at some very prestigious institutions. While my friends were finishing up 10 year long PHD thesis's in advanced sciences, I was gaining highly valuable real world working experience. They actually came to me for advice when it came time for them to jump into the real world. I am now set for life and ready to take up reins in a leadership role while my friends are still peons in their field. Sure they might make more money than I someday, but they will have to settle because their fields are too saturated or under funded. They will not reach their lofty goals, no matter how much college they pay for. Such is life.

My father barely even graduated high school and worked in a bottling plant growing up. He eventually made it all the way to a designer/physicist at a secret national laboratory and still can't tell me what he was working on. The guy never went to college and ended his career teaching them. And he's not even that smart, just very creative and innovative.

So when someone tells you that going to college is required for a good job, just nod and smile. If you lack intelligence, innovation and a strong work ethic then you need to quickly find a lucrative field or trade and train like mad, be it college or vocational school but don't get down on yourself because there's people out there who have it easier than you. Some plumbers make a crap load of money. Some jobs simply require a skill, go find it and become a master at it. You can still make it in this world no matter what hand you are dealt, but sitting on your butt won't help and going to college, going through the motions, doing what others tell you, is not a guarantee that you will reach your goals or be successful.


Good info! I defiantly agree with you and yeah... If you go to college for a specific purpose and know generally what career your goings to have then of course! That's what college is made for. But my point was that most people go to college is just for a degree and tell me.. What percentage of college graduates actually use their degree for a useful purpose. And like you said people will hire a guy with a degree over a smart guy without one.... But, the problem is people automatically think a degree makes you more eligible/capable for a job.
eZflight ~ Where flight is easy!
Youtube videos ~ https://www.youtube.com/ezflight
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dtribby
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I am trying to win the most condescending post of the day award...

Going to school does not make you "smarter" it makes you more knowledgeable (the opposite of ignorant), that's it. Intelligence (smart) is something you are born with not something that can be fostered or changed through education (I hear eating broccoli helps though). There's many factors that go into the success of college grads. Motivation and work ethic are at the top of my list, but intelligence is recognized in this world, just like a fine pair of boobs. And if you were a hiring manager and a really smart non-college grad out shined a college grad who would you hire? Even if you do not agree with it, that's the way it is, that's where the phrase "life isn't fair" comes from.

I personally do not put much stock in college, for many reasons. Progress requires innovation and intelligence, both cannot be taught. Did you guys know that google actually experimented with only hiring innovative people without college degrees? I knew a guy while working at Intel that went over to google, he said they hired him because he lacked a college degree in the subject. They found, through real world stats, people who were well educated were less innovative and less productive. Take the Microsoft interview questions for example, this is one "What method would you use to look up a word in a dictionary?" no joke, look it up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_interview

I am a fairly good example of my theories, my father is a better one. My only formal education is a high school diploma. My life's experiences, the school of hard knocks, is incredibly vast. I would still not recommend my path. Without a college degree, certification or any sort of piece of paper besides a resume I have landed jobs at some very prestigious institutions. While my friends were finishing up 10 year long PHD thesis's in advanced sciences, I was gaining highly valuable real world working experience. They actually came to me for advice when it came time for them to jump into the real world. I am now set for life and ready to take up reins in a leadership role while my friends are still peons in their field. Sure they might make more money than I someday, but they will have to settle because their fields are too saturated or under funded. They will not reach their lofty goals, no matter how much college they pay for. Such is life.

My father barely even graduated high school and worked in a bottling plant growing up. He eventually made it all the way to a designer/physicist at a secret national laboratory and still can't tell me what he was working on. The guy never went to college and ended his career teaching them. And he's not even that smart, just very creative and innovative.

So when someone tells you that going to college is required for a good job, just nod and smile. If you lack intelligence, innovation and a strong work ethic then you need to quickly find a lucrative field or trade and train like mad, be it college or vocational school but don't get down on yourself because there's people out there who have it easier than you. Some plumbers make a crap load of money. Some jobs simply require a skill, go find it and become a master at it. You can still make it in this world no matter what hand you are dealt, but sitting on your butt won't help and going to college, going through the motions, doing what others tell you, is not a guarantee that you will reach your goals or be successful.



Wasn't that almost the same point as my post #17?
Yes, I've known that I'm "different" for some time now...
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Jeriah
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So you are indoctrinated into a state sponsored elitist progressive world view?

I am sorry but you cannot pervert the word "education" to suit the needs of your argument. 1st, can you and I agree we are both typing English? Good, now, lets for the sake of argument say words have definition, and omg they documented such definitions in like say something called a dictionary. Ok, so if we can agree on that, then lets say...




Now, when you use a word, especially within the language you are communicating in, expect those you are communicating with to hear exactly what you are saying as defined in the dictionary.

If you start there, instead of making up meaning to words then you would have better luck with not being called ignorant.

Now on to your fears about our nation's children being taught an opposing political view to your own. That sucks, sorry, deal with it. I grew up liberal, raised by liberal parents, liberal teachers and I find science, facts and life in general to be well inline with my "indoctrination". So I, along with many others in this nation have no problem with our children learning the truth. I am sorry you are at odds with that, I am sorry you fear progression. But that sounds like a personal problem not one of our nation's...


That's why I said a "so called education". Because for 90% of people. its all about the degree you have and not about what you learn or what skills you have. Everyone always says..... "I wonder what I'm going to do in college". instead of first knowing what you want to do, then going to college to learn about it and get a degree in that specific thing you planed to do.
eZflight ~ Where flight is easy!
Youtube videos ~ https://www.youtube.com/ezflight
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