Sidewayskiwi
1556677701330-2079395385.jpg using watt meter a lot now 
Found my assumptions on motor output/thrust v watts way out 
So Turnigy 2826 2200kv on 3s 
Will use either APC 6x5 or TGS 7x3 both putting out 328watts for 29amps 
Always used to blindly follow and put 6x4 props on and been underpowered so it seems
The big power option 
7x5 prop 442 watts for 39.5 amps
That's 100 watts over spec motor gets warm but not hot
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Wildthing
LOL, that watt meter comes in really handy, it's a must tool for this hobby.  Thrust stand next so you can see how much thrust you are making 😉 .  Now try it on 4S but go back to a 6X4 prop. 🙂 
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solentlife
The reason 6x4 is recc'd for the TGY 2826 2200kv - is to get reasonable runtime on smaller LiPo's such as 1300 and 1500 size.

Running a 7x5 ... many people do on such as Polaris - but runtime suffers and also motor runs hot. I often use 6x4 3 blader or 6x5 ... for speed but they are LOUD !! the 6x6 racer props. With the 6x6 ... the airflow keeps the motor relatively cool.
I'll fly anything if I can launch it ! Youtube : solentlifeuk
Quote 1 0
e3_Scott
1556677701330-2079395385.jpg using watt meter a lot now 
Found my assumptions on motor output/thrust v watts way out 
So Turnigy 2826 2200kv on 3s 
Will use either APC 6x5 or TGS 7x3 both putting out 328watts for 29amps 
Always used to blindly follow and put 6x4 props on and been underpowered so it seems
The big power option 
7x5 prop 442 watts for 39.5 amps
That's 100 watts over spec motor gets warm but not hot


What 6x4 props are you using?  If you are using 6x4 TGS/KMP/EMP style props similar to the 6x3 EMP in the picture below, I have found them to be the least effective 6x4 prop I have ever used.
2019-04-03 12.30.40.jpgHaving tested dozens of high kv out runners for park jets with multiple different props, I have found there is often not a big correlation between watts produced and performance at the field.  Personally I am more concerned by number of amps drawn as that is what makes the difference in how much stress you will put on your motor/ESC/battery.  Having tested the TGS 7x3 prop on the motor you mention, it had better mid range performance than a 6x4 APC style prop, but no more top end thrust, I suspect due to the increased drag from a longer prop and the motor could not continue to generate any more RPM at a certain point due to the heavier/larger prop.

Thrust testing is a closer evaluation of how a motor/prop combo will perform, but the best evaluation is at the field as I have also had motors perform better and sometimes worse than what the thrust test numbers on the bench might indicate.

The Turnigy 2826/6 2200 is a 34A motor and I have pushed it beyond that and it still ran OK to a point, but certainly wore out faster.  Theoretically, you should have about 25% less amps in the air than what you saw on your wattmeter, so you should be OK.  I recommend you check often for heat build up after each flight for the first little while.  I would be interested to hear how you make out with a 7x5 prop on that motor.

I have recently done some testing with the Gemfan Flash 6042x2 prop (blue one in the picture above) on this motor, it has proven to be the best 6" two blade prop I have tried to date.  The link to my motor test spreadsheet is here  if you use the arrows on the bottom to scroll all the way to the left, I have a sheet dedicated to the 2212 2200 kv size motors and you can see the results I have gathered complete with amps drawn, watts, thrust, etc.

Here is a field test video I did with the GF Flash 6042x2 prop on the 2826/6 2200 kv motor 


Good luck, again be interested in your field results if you decide to go with the 7x5 prop.  

Cheers,

Scott 
Park Jet noise...the "other" sound of freedom😎
#ParkJetnoise #ParkJetpilot
Quote 1 0
Sidewayskiwi
e3_Scott wrote:


What 6x4 props are you using?  If you are using 6x4 TGS/KMP/EMP style props similar to the 6x3 EMP in the picture below, I have found them to be the least effective 6x4 prop I have ever used.
2019-04-03 12.30.40.jpgHaving tested dozens of high kv out runners for park jets with multiple different props, I have found there is often not a big correlation between watts produced and performance at the field.  Personally I am more concerned by number of amps drawn as that is what makes the difference in how much stress you will put on your motor/ESC/battery.  Having tested the TGS 7x3 prop on the motor you mention, it had better mid range performance than a 6x4 APC style prop, but no more top end thrust, I suspect due to the increased drag from a longer prop and the motor could not continue to generate any more RPM at a certain point due to the heavier/larger prop.

Thrust testing is a closer evaluation of how a motor/prop combo will perform, but the best evaluation is at the field as I have also had motors perform better and sometimes worse than what the thrust test numbers on the bench might indicate.

The Turnigy 2826/6 2200 is a 34A motor and I have pushed it beyond that and it still ran OK to a point, but certainly wore out faster.  Theoretically, you should have about 25% less amps in the air than what you saw on your wattmeter, so you should be OK.  I recommend you check often for heat build up after each flight for the first little while.  I would be interested to hear how you make out with a 7x5 prop on that motor.

I have recently done some testing with the Gemfan Flash 6042x2 prop (blue one in the picture above) on this motor, it has proven to be the best 6" two blade prop I have tried to date.  The link to my motor test spreadsheet is here  if you use the arrows on the bottom to scroll all the way to the left, I have a sheet dedicated to the 2212 2200 kv size motors and you can see the results I have gathered complete with amps drawn, watts, thrust, etc.

Here is a field test video I did with the GF Flash 6042x2 prop on the 2826/6 2200 kv motor 
e3_Scott wrote:


Good luck, again be interested in your field results if you decide to go with the 7x5 prop.  

Cheers,

Scott 

hi Scott
before i found your stuff i was watching RCPlane Pirate and off his recommendations i started to try the tgs/kmp style prop and yea they went well as predicted quieter than the apc and similar performance (maybe slightly better) with slightly longer flight times 
yes i have gone through the Gemfan/king Kong prop phase too a pile languishing in my prop box
watching one of your casts about the gemfan flash suitably impressed ive got two on the way as well as APC gas props as most of my builds are parkjets 
APC 6X5  and no name buget 6x4x3 both at 328W and 29 amps the power gain over the 6x4 2 bladed very noticeable will lift plane out of my hand vertically 
that was a 56 watt increase for only a 5 amp increase in draw 
ive used the tgs 6x3 on my A2212 2700kv 3S set up runs well will most probably use this set up in either the RCP Mig29 or F18 builds 
Couldnt resist not painting the F35 as they look so good in tactical grey but its cost me 100+ grams in paint 
i used Papered DTF board for wing (except KF2) area and elevon/vertical stabs as we talked about last time 
and paperless DTF for fuselage etc all backed up with glass tape/glue figlass and motor moved forward 1 inch (couldve done with 2 inches in hindsight)
have you built a parkjet out of totally paperless DTF????
regards
robf
Quote 0 0
e3_Scott

hi Scott
before i found your stuff i was watching RCPlane Pirate and off his recommendations i started to try the tgs/kmp style prop and yea they went well as predicted quieter than the apc and similar performance (maybe slightly better) with slightly longer flight times 
yes i have gone through the Gemfan/king Kong prop phase too a pile languishing in my prop box
watching one of your casts about the gemfan flash suitably impressed ive got two on the way as well as APC gas props as most of my builds are parkjets 
APC 6X5  and no name buget 6x4x3 both at 328W and 29 amps the power gain over the 6x4 2 bladed very noticeable will lift plane out of my hand vertically 
that was a 56 watt increase for only a 5 amp increase in draw 
ive used the tgs 6x3 on my A2212 2700kv 3S set up runs well will most probably use this set up in either the RCP Mig29 or F18 builds 
Couldnt resist not painting the F35 as they look so good in tactical grey but its cost me 100+ grams in paint 
i used Papered DTF board for wing (except KF2) area and elevon/vertical stabs as we talked about last time 
and paperless DTF for fuselage etc all backed up with glass tape/glue figlass and motor moved forward 1 inch (couldve done with 2 inches in hindsight)
have you built a parkjet out of totally paperless DTF????
regards
robf


Wow, what kind of paint are you using that you gained 100+ grams in paint weight?

I have never built a park jet entirely of paperless DTF.  It would defeat the purpose on areas especially the wing plate as you would have to add so much reinforcement to strengthen the wing and then areas not reinforced are going to flex anyway.  While the paper does add weight, it is important to leave it in certain areas to provide strength.

What is the current AUW flying weight (with battery) of your F35?  

Cheers,

Scott
Park Jet noise...the "other" sound of freedom😎
#ParkJetnoise #ParkJetpilot
Quote 1 0
Sidewayskiwi
e3_Scott wrote:


Wow, what kind of paint are you using that you gained 100+ grams in paint weight?

I have never built a park jet entirely of paperless DTF.  It would defeat the purpose on areas especially the wing plate as you would have to add so much reinforcement to strengthen the wing and then areas not reinforced are going to flex anyway.  While the paper does add weight, it is important to leave it in certain areas to provide strength.

What is the current AUW flying weight (with battery) of your F35?  

Cheers,

Scott

HI Scott 
i use Rustolene spray cans weigh the full can then whats left 
sorry 100 grams in paint and reinforcements (figlass)
all up weight 800grams 
regards
robf
Quote 0 0
e3_Scott

HI Scott 
i use Rustolene spray cans weigh the full can then whats left 
sorry 100 grams in paint and reinforcements (figlass)
all up weight 800grams 
regards
robf


Ok, that is fairly heavy for any setup with the 2826/6 2200 motor.  Even if you get close to 1040 gr of thrust with the GF Flash 6042x2 prop on 3S, your thrust to weight ratio is only going to be about 1.3:1 which isn't too bad, but considering the F-35 is a pretty "draggy" plane, the air frame alone will cancel out a certain amount of your power.

I understand now why you felt no power with a 6x4 prop, based on testing I have done, you would only have about a 1:1 thrust to weight ratio which will allow you to fly in most situations, but you won't have much extra power to have much fun or to get yourself out of trouble, especially as the battery gets lower and you lose some punch.

Where are you putting all the fiberglass reinforcement that would be adding weight?  Can you show some pictures of where you adding that?  I am assuming you are spreading glue over that as well to act like a poor man's fiberglass?  What glue are you using primarily for your construction?

The Mig-35B that I built entirely of DTF granted might be smaller than your F-35, you never said how big the wingspan is, my Mig had a 27" wingspan and with a 2200 3S battery I was at 610 gr AUW.

Believe me, I was a card carrying member of the "overbuilder's anonymous" club for far too long, so I understand the struggle to keep planes light.  I would see if you can cut down some weight in future builds.  On my all DTF Mig-35B I put the normal reinforcement in the wing, some bamboo skewers for reinforcement in the vertical stabs and elevons and later on some thin wooden tongue depressors along the bottoms of the intakes to strengthen the foam a bit.

Cheers,

Scott
Park Jet noise...the "other" sound of freedom😎
#ParkJetnoise #ParkJetpilot
Quote 0 0
Sidewayskiwi
e3_Scott wrote:


Ok, that is fairly heavy for any setup with the 2826/6 2200 motor.  Even if you get close to 1040 gr of thrust with the GF Flash 6042x2 prop on 3S, your thrust to weight ratio is only going to be about 1.3:1 which isn't too bad, but considering the F-35 is a pretty "draggy" plane, the air frame alone will cancel out a certain amount of your power.

I understand now why you felt no power with a 6x4 prop, based on testing I have done, you would only have about a 1:1 thrust to weight ratio which will allow you to fly in most situations, but you won't have much extra power to have much fun or to get yourself out of trouble, especially as the battery gets lower and you lose some punch.

Where are you putting all the fiberglass reinforcement that would be adding weight?  Can you show some pictures of where you adding that?  I am assuming you are spreading glue over that as well to act like a poor man's fiberglass?  What glue are you using primarily for your construction?

The Mig-35B that I built entirely of DTF granted might be smaller than your F-35, you never said how big the wingspan is, my Mig had a 27" wingspan and with a 2200 3S battery I was at 610 gr AUW.

Believe me, I was a card carrying member of the "overbuilder's anonymous" club for far too long, so I understand the struggle to keep planes light.  I would see if you can cut down some weight in future builds.  On my all DTF Mig-35B I put the normal reinforcement in the wing, some bamboo skewers for reinforcement in the vertical stabs and elevons and later on some thin wooden tongue depressors along the bottoms of the intakes to strengthen the foam a bit.

Cheers,

Scott

overbuilders anonymous --- my brother 
lol
yea i ended up very tail heavy  so i had the choice 25 grams of lead or 25 grams of reinforcement 
so basically all of nose and undertray all glass cloth/glue figlass inside and out and leading edges (hate dented leading edges pet ex aircraft mech hate)
bare airframe was 300 grams 
really did go over the top a bit lol 
will send pics
regards
robf
Quote 1 0
Sidewayskiwi
e3_Scott wrote:


Ok, that is fairly heavy for any setup with the 2826/6 2200 motor.  Even if you get close to 1040 gr of thrust with the GF Flash 6042x2 prop on 3S, your thrust to weight ratio is only going to be about 1.3:1 which isn't too bad, but considering the F-35 is a pretty "draggy" plane, the air frame alone will cancel out a certain amount of your power.

I understand now why you felt no power with a 6x4 prop, based on testing I have done, you would only have about a 1:1 thrust to weight ratio which will allow you to fly in most situations, but you won't have much extra power to have much fun or to get yourself out of trouble, especially as the battery gets lower and you lose some punch.

Where are you putting all the fiberglass reinforcement that would be adding weight?  Can you show some pictures of where you adding that?  I am assuming you are spreading glue over that as well to act like a poor man's fiberglass?  What glue are you using primarily for your construction?

The Mig-35B that I built entirely of DTF granted might be smaller than your F-35, you never said how big the wingspan is, my Mig had a 27" wingspan and with a 2200 3S battery I was at 610 gr AUW.

Believe me, I was a card carrying member of the "overbuilder's anonymous" club for far too long, so I understand the struggle to keep planes light.  I would see if you can cut down some weight in future builds.  On my all DTF Mig-35B I put the normal reinforcement in the wing, some bamboo skewers for reinforcement in the vertical stabs and elevons and later on some thin wooden tongue depressors along the bottoms of the intakes to strengthen the foam a bit.

Cheers,

Scott

Right gone back and racked my brains 
Then it dawned on me
I treated paperless DTF like the model plane foam iam used to 
Model plane foam from HK is @ 30% lighter than depron but needed a lot of reinforcements with figlass 
I treated the paperless DTF the same and I've over engineered (bit of an understatement) 
So i take 30% off the flying weight and iam back to @550 grams where it should be 
Regards
Robf
Quote 1 0
e3_Scott

Right gone back and racked my brains 
Then it dawned on me
I treated paperless DTF like the model plane foam iam used to 
Model plane foam from HK is @ 30% lighter than depron but needed a lot of reinforcements with figlass 
I treated the paperless DTF the same and I've over engineered (bit of an understatement) 
So i take 30% off the flying weight and iam back to @550 grams where it should be 
Regards
Robf


Have you flown it yet?  If not, good luck on the maiden flight🙂

Cheers,

Scott
Park Jet noise...the "other" sound of freedom😎
#ParkJetnoise #ParkJetpilot
Quote 1 0
Sidewayskiwi
hopefully this weekend 
if weather holds
regards
robf
Quote 2 0
Sidewayskiwi
SCOTT
WHAT SHOULD OF  RCPOWERS F18V3 WEIGH 
GIVE ME A TARGET SO TO SPEAK
REGARDS
ROBF
Quote 0 0
e3_Scott
SCOTT
WHAT SHOULD OF  RCPOWERS F18V3 WEIGH 
GIVE ME A TARGET SO TO SPEAK
REGARDS
ROBF

I learned the very hard way, you don't want to be over about 22 oz/625 gr AUW (with battery).  I built mine much heavier than that (I think I was over 700 gr) with a big power system, flew it fast and aggressive and snapped my wing in mid air, not a good day of flying and that plane was made of Depron with 3mm carbon tube wing reinforcement.  The lighter the better, otherwise if you find yourself up around or over the weight I mentioned, you will have to take it far easier with turns and aerobatics or you will see wing flex and potentially break your wing like I did. 2013-09-03 15.00.53.jpg
 Cheers, 

Scott
Park Jet noise...the "other" sound of freedom😎
#ParkJetnoise #ParkJetpilot
Quote 1 0