jcrankshaw
What's the difference and when is one prefered over the other?
~~~~~~:bleh:JCrankshaw:bleh:~~~~~~~~
Jeff Crankshaw
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Reply 0 0
MoTheG
Quote:
What's also important is:
Inrunner equals brushed
Outrunner equals Brushless
That is incorrect, there is no correlation.
I do not know of any brushed outrunners though.
Quote:
due to the technique, brushless motors can be prevented from frying by the ESC if they are suddendly blocked. brushed motor ESCs don't have that feature afaik.
You could implement something like that for any type of ESC.
If it can not fly with NiMH it is not a plane.
Reply 0 0
vltchkr8477
I found this a useful read:
http://www.tcrconline.com/documents/electric%20flight.pdf
Reply 0 0
ajromano2011
thanks vltchkr
Reply 0 0
BarryMartin
Outrunners have more torque and inrunners are better for high speeds. Thats why in planks you see outrunners turning props directly and inrunners used either with very small direct drive props or in gearboxes, in a outrunner the outside of the motor turns an in runner is as the name applys, and the advantage to outrunner is they seem to run cooler.
Visit this site
Regards,
Barry Martin
Reply 0 0
Andy4568
Inrunner - The armature spins inside the case.
Outrunner - The armature stands still and the case spins around it (like an old rotary engine if you know what that is).
In general the advantage of an outrunner is that it can convert a given level of input power into rotary motion at a lower RPM than an inrunner. Thus an outrunner will take you towards the same types of benefits acheived by using a gearbox with an inrunner. Usually that means turning a larger prop more efficiently.
Regards.
Andy.
Reply 1 0
LukeWarm
Quote:
Outrunners have more torque and inrunners are better for high speeds. Thats why in planks you see outrunners turning props directly and inrunners used either with very small direct drive props or in gearboxes, in a outrunner the outside of the motor turns an in runner is as the name applys, and the advantage to outrunner is they seem to run cooler.
The outrunner turns the outer housing of the motor. This config has more leverage, therefore more torque. Generally speaking, the outrunner is a more powerful motor. The part of the motor that has the magnets glued to it, turns the prop. The windings are always stationary.
Reply 0 0
LukeWarm
Quote:
What's also important is:
Inrunner equals brushed
Outrunner equals Brushless
Argonath Quote
    • Brushed motors spin the coil around inside a case with fixed magnets mounted around the outside of the casing.
    • Brushless motors do the opposite. The coils are fixed either to the outer casing or inside the casing while the magnets are spun.
    • Outrunner motors have the magnets mounted on the outer casing and the outer casing is spun around the fixed coils in the center of the motor casing, hence the term "Outrunner"
    • Inrunner motors have the fixed coils mounted to the outer casing and the magnets are mounted to the armature shaft and this spins inside the casing, hence the term "Inrunner"
Argonath nailed it, great job dude. I quoted him to help my post. The coils do not move, the ESC send a 3-phase AC electrical signal that moves inside the coils and causes a magnetic field to rotate so as to push and pull on the magnets.
The ESC controls the speed of an AC motor with frequency, not voltage like DC motors. If you plug an 11.1 volt battery into your power system, you have 11.1 volts going to the motor with the full amperage potential of the battery backing that voltage.
The AC brushless motors we use are true 3-phase AC motors. The motors DO run on AC current. The ESC is a trapezoidal wave generator. It produces 3 separate waves (one for each wire to the motor). The speed of the motor has nothing to do with voltage or amps, but instead the timing of the current fed into it. By increasing and decreasing the wave length (frequency) of the trapezoidal wave on the 3 phases, the ESC causes the motor to spin faster and slower. The ESC switches the polarity of the phases to create the waves. This means that the voltage through any given winding flows 'Alternately' one direction then the other. This creates a push-pull effect in the magnetic field of each winding, making the motor more powerful for its size and weight. The motor and the load that is placed on it, is what determines the amp draw from the ESC and the battery.
How an AC Motor and its ESC work !!
Reply 0 0
squishy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brushless_DC_electric_motor
"Education is not about filling buckets; it is lighting fires." W.B. Yeats
http://www.youtube.com/user/squishy654
Reply 0 0
LukeWarm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brushless_AC_electric_motor
"The brushless DC motor
is a brushless AC motor with integrated inverter and rectifier, sensor, and inverter control electronics".
Call me strange, but to me, An AC motor is one that has an AC voltage input driving it. Why would anyone name a motor by its controller's input? But ether way, ours does not have a sensor, this would make ours a brushless AC motor.
Reply 0 0
squishy
Because the ESC in a brushless is just the removal of the motor's function (the switching function), it's an extension of the motor, or part of the motor is in the ESC. The part of the ESC that controls the speed is DC and outputs in DC to the oscillator (replaces brushed switching function) right? Just guessing here. So the "motor part" of the ESC, the part that makes a few wires AC (for a few inches) is fed DC, making the motor, and it's wires (which are just extensions of the windings, as you may know if you have ever dealt with the enamel on them while soldering) a DC motor. The battery is DC, the ESC is fed DC. DC is pushed to the part of the controller which drives the phases (oscillator) and then it's sent over a short wire to the actual windings. I call it a DC motor. Brushed motors are considered DC motors, these replaced them with the same DC batteries, they do the same thing, behave the same way. Just because we can explain why it needs three motor wires, does not make it an AC motor. What we should be talking about is wire diameter, winding count, pole count and so on and so on...I want info on winding my own motors, replacing bearings and repairing busted up and used motors and making them into hotrods!!
"Education is not about filling buckets; it is lighting fires." W.B. Yeats
http://www.youtube.com/user/squishy654
Reply 0 0
poormansairforce
Quote:
Because the ESC in a brushless is just the removal of the motor's function (the switching function), it's an extension of the motor, or part of the motor is in the ESC. The part of the ESC that controls the speed is DC and outputs in DC to the oscillator (replaces brushed switching function) right? Just guessing here. So the "motor part" of the ESC, the part that makes a few wires AC (for a few inches) is fed DC, making the motor, and it's wires (which are just extensions of the windings, as you may know if you have ever dealt with the enamel on them while soldering) a DC motor. The battery is DC, the ESC is fed DC. DC is pushed to the part of the controller which drives the phases (oscillator) and then it's sent over a short wire to the actual windings. I call it a DC motor. Brushed motors are considered DC motors, these replaced them with the same DC batteries, they do the same thing, behave the same way. Just because we can explain why it needs three motor wires, does not make it an AC motor. What we should be talking about is wire diameter, winding count, pole count and so on and so on...I want info on winding my own motors, replacing bearings and repairing busted up and used motors and making them into hotrods!!
LW is correct! Its an AC synchronous motor. A motor is defined by the signal or power source that needs to be applied to the wires coming through the case of the motor. If we removed the commuter from a DC motor we would then need to apply AC voltage to the motor and the rpm would be regulated by how many hertz the AC signal is oscillating which would make it an AC motor, not a DC motor. In fact, all motors are AC if we are using your arguments. In industry, we take AC voltage and convert it to DC and feed it into a giant "ESC" that drives a 3 phase AC motor, like a lathe, just like our brushless motors. This allows for instant reverse, brake, slow, and even stepping functions.
As for rewinding your motor there are many sources for info on doing this but you won't find it here. The helicopter forums are some of the best I've found. I rewound one of my motors that had a broken winding and now I would only do it to save a motor...maybe!
Reply 0 0
squishy
I'm not explaining it well, here...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brushless_DC_motor
Brushless DC electric motor (BLDC motors, BL motors) also known as electronically commutated motors (ECMs, EC motors) are synchronous motors that are powered by a DC electric source via an integrated inverter/switching power supply, which produces an AC electric signal to drive the motor (AC, alternating current, does not imply a sinusoidal waveform but rather a bi-directional current with no restriction on waveform); additional sensors and electronics control the inverter output amplitude and waveform (and therefore percent of DC bus usage/efficiency) and frequency (i.e. rotor speed).
The motor part of a brushless motor is often a permanent magnet synchronous motor, but can also be a switched reluctance motor, or induction motor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brushless_AC_electric_motor
A Brushless AC electric motor is an electric motor driven by an AC electrical input, which lacks any form of commutator or slip ring. Generally the term 'brushless AC motor' will refer to a permanent-magnet synchronous motor (PMSM) orpermanent-magnet motor (PMM), a synchronous motor which uses permanent magnets rather than windings in the rotor. PMSMs are either axial flux, radial flux, transverse flux, or flux switching depending on the arrangement of components, with each topology having different tradeoffs among efficiency, size, weight, and operating speed.
Alternative designs may use reluctance rather than magnets. Asynchronous induction motors are also brushless AC motors.
The brushless DC motor is a brushless AC motor with integrated inverter and rectifier, sensor, and inverter control electronics.
"Education is not about filling buckets; it is lighting fires." W.B. Yeats
http://www.youtube.com/user/squishy654
Reply 0 0
poormansairforce
Quote:
I'm not explaining it well, here...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brushless_DC_motor
Brushless DC electric motor (BLDC motors, BL motors) also known as electronically commutated motors (ECMs, EC motors) are synchronous motors that are powered by a DC electric source via an integrated inverter/switching power supply, which produces an AC electric signal to drive the motor (AC, alternating current, does not imply a sinusoidal waveform but rather a bi-directional current with no restriction on waveform); additional sensors and electronics control the inverter output amplitude and waveform (and therefore percent of DC bus usage/efficiency) and frequency (i.e. rotor speed).
The motor part of a brushless motor is often a permanent magnet synchronous motor, but can also be a switched reluctance motor, or induction motor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brushless_AC_electric_motor
A Brushless AC electric motor is an electric motor driven by an AC electrical input, which lacks any form of commutator or slip ring. Generally the term 'brushless AC motor' will refer to a permanent-magnet synchronous motor (PMSM) orpermanent-magnet motor (PMM), a synchronous motor which uses permanent magnets rather than windings in the rotor. PMSMs are either axial flux, radial flux, transverse flux, or flux switching depending on the arrangement of components, with each topology having different tradeoffs among efficiency, size, weight, and operating speed.
Alternative designs may use reluctance rather than magnets. Asynchronous induction motors are also brushless AC motors.
The brushless DC motor is a brushless AC motor with integrated inverter and rectifier, sensor, and inverter control electronics.
You explained it very well. The last sentence in your post is the reason its not considered a DC motor.
[INDENT=1][FONT=sans-serif]The brushless DC motor
is a brushless AC motor with integrated inverter and rectifier, sensor, and inverter control electronics.
So everything has to be inside the motor case for it to be a DC motor! Once you take the commuter or brains out of the case it is considered an AC motor...and by design they all are since you can not run any motor off of a pure DC source applied to the windings. The simple explanation for why the signal or voltage source to the wires going through the case matters is that a tech only needs to now what signal and voltage those wires need! If you send a DC source straight to our motors they won't run! But you can take 3 phase AC power from the utility grid, put it through a step down transformer and it will run a brushless motor off any of your planes without an ESC or commuter!!! Now, using your thought process above, is it still a DC motor?
Reply 0 0
poormansairforce
BTW, if you are going to rewind motors you need to get your head around this because there are many different winds you can do and they can be hooked up differently depending on the number of poles, torque desired or maybe you want a speed wind, etc. And they are all based on the 3 phase AC principle! There are even guys running 2 ESCs through 2 different sets of windings on the same motor!
Reply 0 0
Shelby64
I will continue Defining a motor by its input and how it works.
LW
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