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Li-Mn Batteries

Discussion in 'Scratchbuild Talk' started by Jbirky, Sep 24, 2009.

  1. Jbirky

    Jbirky Airman

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    Good Evening,

    I notice that the safer, newer Li-Mn batteries are on deep discount from Apogee. Unfortunatly, on September 4th, they sold :eek: and they no longer have intentions of serving the hobby community.

    I bought one of these:
    http://pfmdistribution.com/secure/shop/item.asp?itemid=243&catid=60

    It is really just a test to try something different. There is another manufacturer that makes the Li-Mn batteries, but they want over $90 for an equivalent pack:eek:

    Apogee is dumping their stock on us at deep discounts. While it costs a ton more than a Chinese battery, it is a newer technology, which I have not tested, but the voltages are the same and they have full compatibility with LiPo chargers:)

    I really think LiPo batteries are maturing. Chargers are starting to auto detect cell counts, charge C ratings are getting to be 2 and often 3C, chargers now balance and charge, and we are looking at some batteries in the 30C up into the 40C range, which is getting to the point it is unnecessary to make a better battery as far as C ratings go. I mean, at 30C, a battery lasts only 2 minutes at full rating discharge, and we all want more flight time than that. Basically, it is getting harder to get bad quality LiPos. I remember only a couple years ago a $40 LiPo would puff and not get you reasonable RPM; it just did not work. You had to fly Thunder Power, Flight Power, or some other brand that cost you $60 and up for a 3 cell 2200 pack. Now, you can get a pack for as cheap as $15, which performs better than those $60 packs from 3 years ago, and almost no pack puffs after 2 flights due to factory defects anymore. Even the cheap stuff from Hong Kong stays rock-hard after dozens of flights.

    A sure sign of a mature technology is the advent of newer, replacement technologies that are still in the infancy stages. For instance, Li-MN batteries are still in the infancy, but their capacity/weight ratio and discharge ratings are very good. There are also the new LeFePO4 packs, but I am going to avoid these until they mature. Their voltages are not even the compatible with LiPo chargers, so it is not a drop in replaceemnt, which the Li-Mn actually are.
  2. nikos.s

    nikos.s Rookie

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    re:

    i agree my frend . see how many battery types they are..
    Chemistry Cathode Electrolyte Nominal voltage Open-circuit voltage Wh/kg Wh/dm3 Li-MnO2 (Li-Mn, "CR") Heat-treated manganese dioxide Lithium perchlorate in propylene carbonate and dimethoxyethane 3 V 3.7 V 280 580 The most common consumer grade battery, about 80% of the lithium battery market. Uses inexpensive materials. Suitable for low-drain, long-life, low-cost applications. High energy density per both mass and volume. Can deliver high pulse currents. Wide temperature range. With discharge the internal impedance rises and the terminal voltage decreases. Maximum temperature limited to about 60 °C. High self-discharge at high temperatures. Li-SOCl2 Thionyl chloride Lithium tetrachloroaluminate in thionyl chloride 3.5 V 3.65 V 290 670 Liquid cathode. For low temperature applications. Can operate down to -55 °C, where it retains over 50% of its rated capacity. Negligible amount of gas generated in nominal use, limited amount under abuse. Has relatively high internal impedance and limited short-circuit current. High energy density, about 500 Wh/kg. Toxic. Electrolyte reacts with water. Low-current cells used for portable electronics and memory backup. High-current cells used in military applications. In long storage forms passivation layer on anode, which may lead to temporary voltage delay when put into service. High cost and safety concerns limit use in civilian applications. Can explode when shorted. Underwriters Laboratories require trained technician for replacement of these batteries. Hazardous waste, Class 9 Hazmat shipment.[1] Li-SOCl2,BrCl, Li-BCX Thionyl chloride with bromine chloride Lithium tetrachloroaluminate in thionyl chloride 3.7-3.8 V 3.9 V 350 770 Liquid cathode. A variant of the thionyl chloride battery, with 300 mV higher voltage. The higher voltage drops back to 3.5 V soon as the bromine chloride gets consumed during the first 10-20% of discharge. The cells with added bromine chloride are thought to be safer when abused. Li-SO2Cl2 Sulfuryl chloride
    3.7 3.95 330 720 Liquid cathode. Similar to thionyl chloride. Discharge does not result in buildup of elemental sulfur, which is thought to be involved in some hazardous reactions, therefore sulfuryl chloride batteries may be safer. Commercial deployment hindered by tendency of the electrolyte to corrode the lithium anodes, reducing the shelf life. Chlorine is added to some cells to make them more resistant to abuse. Sulfuryl chloride cells give less maximum current than thionyl chloride ones, due to polarization of the carbon cathode. Sulfuryl chloride reacts violently with water, releasing hydrogen chloride and sulfuric acid.[2] Li-SO2 Sulfur dioxide on teflon-bonded carbon Lithium bromide in sulfur dioxide with small amount of acetonitrile 2.85 V 3.0 V 250 400 Liquid cathode. Can operate down to -55 °C and up to +70 °C. Contains liquid SO2 at high pressure. Requires safety vent, can explode in some conditions. High energy density. High cost. At low temperatures and high currents performs better than Li-MnO2. Toxic. Acetonitrile forms lithium cyanide, and can form hydrogen cyanide in high temperatures.[3] Used in military applications.
    Addition of bromine monochloride can boost the voltage to 3.9 V and increase energy density.[4]
    Li-(CF)x ("BR") Carbon monofluoride Lithium tetrafluoroborate in propylene carbonate, dimethoxyethane, and/or gamma-butyrolactone 2.8 V 3.1 V 360 680 Cathode material formed by high-temperature intercalation of fluorine gas into graphite powder. High energy density (250 Wh/kg), 7 year shelf life. Used for low to moderate current applications, eg. memory and clock backup batteries. Very good safety record. Used in aerospace applications, qualified for space since 1976. Used in military applications both terrestrial and marine, and in missiles. Also used in cardiac pacemakers.[5] Maximum temperature 85 °C. Very low self-discharge (<0.5%/year at 60 °C, <1%/yr at 85 °C). Developed in 1970s by Matsu****a.[6] Li-I2 Iodine solid organic charge transfer complex (eg. poly-2-vinylpyridine, P2VP) 2.8 V 3.1 V

    Solid electrolyte. Very high reliability. Used in medical applications. Does not generate gas even under short circuit. Solid-state chemistry, limited short-circuit current, suitable only for low-current applications. Terminal voltage decreases with degree of discharge due to precipitation of lithium iodide. Low self-discharge. Li-Ag2CrO4 Silver chromate Lithium perchlorate solution 3.1/2.6 V 3.45 V

    Very high reliability. Has a 2.6 V plateau after reaching certain percentage of discharge, provides early warning of impending discharge. Developed specifically for medical applications, eg. implanted pacemakers. Li-Ag2V4O11, Li-SVO, Li-CSVO Silver oxide+vanadium pentoxide (SVO) lithium hexafluorophosphate or lithium hexafluoroarsenate in propylene carbonate with dimethoxyethane



    Used in medical applications, eg. implantable defibrillators, neurostimulators, and drug infusion systems. Also projected for use in other electronics, eg. emergency locator transmitters. High energy density. Long shelf life. Capable of continuous operation at nominal temperature of 37 °C.[7] Two-stage discharge with a plateau. Output voltage decreasing proportionally to the degree of discharge. Resistant to abuse.
    Addition of copper(II) oxide to the cathode material results in the Li-CSVO variant.
    Li-CuO Copper(II) oxide Lithium Perchlorate dissolved in Dioxolane 1.5 V 2.4 V

    Can operate up to 150 °C. Developed as a replacement of zinc-carbon and alkaline batteries. "Voltage up" problem, high difference between open-circuit and nominal voltage. Produced until mid-1990s, replaced by lithium-iron sulfide. Current use limited. Li-Cu4O(PO4)2 Copper oxyphosphate




    See Li-CuO Li-CuS Copper sulfide
    1.5 V


    Li-PbCuS Lead sulfide and copper sulfide
    1.5 V 2.2 V

    Li-FeS Iron sulfide Propylene carbonate, dioxolane, dimethoxyethane 1.5-1.2 V


    "Lithium-iron", "Li/Fe". used as a replacement for alkaline batteries. See lithium - iron disulfide. Li-FeS2 Iron disulfide Propylene carbonate, dioxolane, dimethoxyethane 1.6-1.4 V 1.8 V 297
    "Lithium-iron", "Li/Fe". Used in Energizer lithium cells as a replacement for alkaline zinc-manganese chemistry. Called "voltage-compatible" lithiums. 2.5 times higher lifetime for high current discharge regime than alkaline batteries, better storage life in e.g. cars in summer due to lower self-discharge, 10 years storage time. FeS2 is cheap. Some types rechargeable. Cathode often designed as a paste of iron sulfide powder mixed with powdered graphite. Variant is Li-CuFeS2. Li-Bi2Pb2O5 Lead bismuthate
    1.5 V 1.8 V

    Replacement of silver-oxide batteries, with higher energy density, lower tendency to leak, and better performance at higher temperatures. Li-Bi2O3 Bismuth trioxide
    1.5 V 2.04 V

    Li-V2O5 Vanadium pentoxide
    3.3/2.4 V 3.4 V 120/260 300/660 Two discharge plateaus. Low-pressure. Rechargeable. Used in reserve batteries. Li-CoO2 Cobalt dioxide




    Li-CuCl2 Copper chloride




    Rechargeable. Li/Al-MnO2 Manganese dioxide




    Rechargeable. Li/Al-V2O5 Vanadium pentoxide




    Rechargeable. Li-ion carbon liquid



    Rechargeable. See lithium ion battery. Li-poly polymer solid



    Rechargeable. See lithium ion polymer battery.
  3. le0pard64

    le0pard64 Rookie

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    There me a lot o' big words in there, we be naught but humble RC knuts.:D
  4. Hot Dogger

    Hot Dogger Rookie

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    Li-mn/Apogee

    Hi, I guess I'm the new kid on the block. Thank you for addressing the Li-mn battery subject. Who is the other outfit that makes the Li-mn packs?
    I only knew of Apogee.:( We do the RC thing as a family and lipos have been a bit scary in the past. Apogee's packs were the only ones I knew of that finally checked the thermal run away problem that leads to the 4000 degree internal temp. and then flame-out. Not good with kids around! You guys sound like the battery masters, Please Help!!

    Thanks
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